Q: Let's go into your thoughts on archival tape storage, what kind of theories you have on that, what you'd like to see, etc....

A: The first thing you have to do with a large collection of tapes, is store them. Hopefully you have the luxury of storing it in nice place, that's great--but most people don't. If you separate the stuff that you know is unique, and you know that it's that only copy of it's kind--and it's master quality stuff--you separate it from out-takes, or various mixes of the same thing or alternates from various things that have already been released...

Q: So there's various levels of archiving...

A: Yeah, because it's so expensive to properly store the real masters. There's a place called Hollywood Vaults, that have these space-age vaults with temperature controlled rooms that are about 45 degrees, automatic fire protection, high-security cameras, and there's usually somebody there. They have these Swiss-made archival storage shelving, that actually make the space for you to walk into. Depending upon how much space you've rented, you code will allow you these garage door-like opening mechanisms, that allow you to open just the ones you want to open. In the case of Nash, he has two rows of them. He has a rather large one split among CSN. He's worked out a way of separating them so that the proper people can get to the right tapes.

The next thing you need to do once you've got everything separated, it to have somebody make a database of every number and marking that's on the tape, and every song title...

Q: Notes that might be on the box?

A: Yeah, and ideally every entry should really have a scan of what's on the tape box, because handwriting is a good way of figuring out who was on the session and other peripheral stuff. If you've worked with the same tapes over and over again, you get to recognize their handwriting, for instance I can recognize Stanley Johnson's writing, Bill Halverson's, Don Gooch, etc. That's pretty common for tape archival stuff.

Eventually you'd like to have a DAT of everything that's in the vault. For instance, I have a DAT of almost all of the CSN and Crosby and Nash stuff that's in the vault. Nash has most of the live CSN shows on ADAT since 1991 , when he made a policy of taping all the CSN shows. A lot of that music hasn't been listened to yet. So, it take a lot of dedication and time. I'm about to go to New York to look through the Atlantic vaults to see if there's any leftover CSN or Crosby stuff that was missed during the box set reserach...there could be anything there.

Q: What about Buffalo Springfield stuff?

A: That wouldn't fall under my juriisdiction. Also they've got a very corporate guy running the library now, so he's not going to let me wander around the halls of the storage facility (laughs). That inhibits me, because I can look at the edge of a box and tell where it came from. If I see that Scotch Tartan on a box, it might have come from Heiders' in the early 70's, because most of the stuff I'm looking for is from 1969 to 1972. There was a person named Doc Storch who worked on the first Crosby/Nash record who now calls herself Sandy Fisher, and she made up a list of everything that came from Heiders' on a typewriter--a database with all of the numbers, and that's been very useful in trying to back trace some of the missing PERRO tapes. And that was the very first database

Q: So what you've said about tape storage sounds like a good game plan, but are there other methods, etc. that you disagree with?

A: Oh, yes. There's still a lot of record companies or individuals who will transfer everything to DAT, and then throw the analogs away, which is very stupid because you're assuming that the way you're archiving is going to be the end-all. You know, those DAT's may not last five years, and standards may change. Your analog two tracks may still be your best bet for keeping it around. Some idiot did that with the entire Liberty-Imperial collection about 1989. They put a kid in a room with a 1630 and a two-track, and as he finished each reel, he tossed 'em into the dumpster...

Q: Oh, god....

A: Yeah, all the old Ricky Nelson, Chipmunks, Fats Domino stuff. See, in the annals of the archive world, people like that should be shot at dawn (laughter).

Q: What about the Hollies stuff?

A: I don't think any of the master masters went through there, as it was licensed from another country. For instance, CBS used to make a Dolby safety copy of every two track master, it was standard procedure. While you were mastering, you'd make up that Dolby safety, and that would get sent to other countries. It was that policy that allowed them to make sure that there were several copies somewhere in the world, .

Q: What about when artists keep the masters?

A: Well, I can tell you that the two-track masters of the first two New Riders album have been lost forever, because they stored them in a damp place somewhere in Marin; they lost them in a flood. CBS, of course had their Dolby safeties, but the master masters were lost. So, sometimes it's not always advantageous for the artist store the tapes. But fortunately, Graham Nash had the desire and resources to store his tapes properly. Many record companies up until recently didn’t care about their masters and if the artists had not saved copies or the originals, there would be nothing! Atlantic had a fire in a bad storage facility several years ago and they had to remaster some of their really old recordings like Ruth Brown and Ray Charles back from vinyl just to make retro reissues. Talk about generation loss...

Q: You've done some work for Archive Records in the recent past, tell me about that.

A: I've done two projects with them so far: The Ozark Mountain Daredevils, and Brewer & Shipley Live. My friend Paul Peterson, who is now a publicist for Rainsong Guitars, worked for many years with both of those groups when he was at Good Karma Management. They also managed Chet Nichols, whom we talked about earlier. Paul had managed a venue called The Cowtown Ballroom in Kansas City, which was kind of a Fillmore West-like place in the Midwest. He had the idea of bringing in the Record Plant truck, which was brand new at the time. They had it there for three months, and recorded every show.

Q: When was this?

A: 1973. He has a collection of shows by The Ozarks, Brewer & Shipley, Loudon Wainwright, Leo Kotke, The Byrds, Paul Butterfield...

Q: He had rights to all of this stuff?

A: Yeah, to all the recordings, but he has to secure permission from the various artists for release. For twenty five years he carried around all of these multi-tracks. I reconnected with him, and I put him in touch with Archive Records, who were looking for stuff, and they put an option on his whole package, and they released the first two. We were hoping to do Paul Butterfield, but it hasn't really come about yet. It was the last band, the "Better Days" band, but as usual, the Bearsville people recently held up the proceedings...

Q: That's too bad...

A: It is too bad, because the Butterfield set's incredible.

Q: You worked with The Tubes around this period, correct?

A: Yeah I did. This was before they signed with A&M. I made the demo that got them their deal. I hung out with them a great deal in rehearsals, made many demos and lived over at Prairie’s house for a couple of months. I thought they were brilliant and very, very funny. They were true pioneers in what they did. My business acumen at the time was terrible. I didn't secure a contract on any acts that I brought to the record companies, and when you don't do that, you'll get aced out. I was still a hippie in that regard and into handshake deals, like I had with the Dead andthe New Riders, which they always honored. These tapes were, in some ways, better than some of the stuff on their first record. As opposed to the heavily arranged, symphonic approach that Al Kooper used, these demos were just the raw band, doing their intense, angst-ridden stuff. Great energy. We hope to release this set very soon on an international label.

Q: Back to the Archive Records stuff briefly, did you add anything to the live tapes?

A: Most of the Brewer and Shipley live performances didn't have any drums, so I hired a talented studio drummer, Rick Shloesser, to play on it. What I got was really good, isolated, clean drums. It sounded live, because in between songs, I had him adjust his seat, make stick sounds, hit a few random drums stuff like that. He was amazing, we got drums on 8 tracks in a day. One track didn't have the piano, and "One Toke" needed it, so I 'wild-synched' Mark Naftalin's piano from another night that he did play. It sounded a little cheesy if you were to turn it up loud, but it had just enough of that bar room piano feel to it back in the mix.

Q: Did anybody hear it, and say, "What are you doing here?"

A: No...

Q: 'Cause with something like that, a lot of people would shout, "Revisionism"...

A: Well, they wouldn't know, because they weren’t there to make the call. The record really needed it, and I was using a real player that they actually used, and a drummer that they would have hired at the time, had they known him. I could call this that revisionism to some extent, but there comes to a point where you have to say, "Do we the song to be complete, or do we want to take it so far that it's not an enjoyable experience." Brewer and Shipley toured without drums because it was a monitor and PA nightmare getting them to work with acoustic guitars. But the way we did the drum overdubs was very much in the spirit of the way the original shows were recorded : we put up four mikes, and we did all of it in one day, like a live show. We kept that kind of consciousness and spirit about it, and I think it worked.

Q: What kind of production stuff do you want to get into at present?

A: I want to work with new artists who can embrace some of the production values that I've used, techniques that work. Strong songs, strong performances a good live, cutting band. I certainly don't want to be locked into being into just '60s acts and archival projects. I like working with acts that have character and persona, and I love the energy of an emerging new talent to work with. Ultimately, music is music and songs are songs.

Q: Anybody out there now that you can make reference to that you like, or would like to work with?

A: I like a lot of bands. I'd like to produce The Foo Fighters, Garbage, Wilco. I could do great things with Smashing Pumpkins or Silverchair.

There's this writer-singer from New Zealand, who in negotiations for a major deal. His name is Crofton Orr. He's a total Crosby fan, about 27, and his approach is very fresh, he's totally retro, but he has a great sense of melody and what's hip today. I want to be the first to expose him to a good studio band. We met via email -- he found my website, sent me email and started asking questions about Crosby, and now we're talking about working together.

I think there's a move--and you mentioned this earlier--to go back to some of the live takes, singer-songwriter approach. There's certainly more opportunity for that to happen than in the last twenty years. Some artists who were thought of as dinosaurs by some are now revered and recognized as great masters of the art. This is certainly happening for Crosby, who's killing them now internationally with CPR, and I think that Nash will probably do a solo album soon that will also be incredible.

Q: How about Stills?

A: Well, Stills had that solo record a few years ago, STILLS ALONE, which was really good. But he hasn't done many solo records recently, and I think he's due for another. I would love to work with him someday, since I never had a full album experience with him. But I also like dealing with the younger artists, they have fewer preconceptions and tend to be more motivated to sweat a little bit in performance, and take direction more readily. Stephen’s son, Chris, for instance...he’s wonderful.

Q: Interesting...

A: There's also a band out of England called Swervedriver that I'd love to produce, they're kind of a cult band...great vocals, kind of a modal thing, thick chords...

Q: Have you heard Spiritualized?

A: No...

Q: You might find them interesting.

A: I like bands like Silverchair, and a lot of techno stuff. I think William Orbit is brilliant. I don't know what it would be like producing him, he probably goes into a room and does everything by himself, besides after Madonna, he’s a producer himself. MIDI stuff and samples are not what I do. But I love the techno soundscape and low bass. Like you said, I'm more into capturing the moment, and I think artists like that are coming back. I think I could do something for Jewel, I could make a good record for her.

Q: Have you heard Wilco?

A: Yeah. I actually have contacted the band, but have not heard back from 'em, but I think they'd be a good match...

Q: Yeah I think so too...

A: There's also a lot going on with some of the Alternative acts, it pretty exciting. The Rap/Hip-Hop thing, I like some of it, but I don't understand it and I’m distant from the culture. I wouldn't know what to do with it.

Q: You play music, too, which I think is cool for a producer/engineer...

A: Yeah, I'm a ex-bass player but I wouldn't want to impose my musical taste on anyone. Not on the David Foster level, anyway...just not what I think should be done when presenting an artist.

Q: Right, Todd Rundgren used to do that, too....

A: He's brilliant, though...

Q: He is indeed...I was just thinking about records like "Baby Blue" (Badfinger), it almost sounds like it could have come off of one of his early solo albums.

A: Yeah, see what you're saying. I don't want to do records like that. I want to get to the soul of the singer and the song. I find that the songwriters that play and sing really have the whole thing goin' on, you know? You can build a band around that, and get great performances. With people doing other people's songs, you're a generation removed, and it's harder to get the intensity. A case in point is a wonderful singer/songwriter named Bonnie Hayes...

Q: Oh yeah, she's great...

A: She is. She wrote "Have A Heart" and one other Bonnie Raitt tune, "Love Letter". If you heard her demo versions, you'd shit. The arrangements (that Raitt used) are Bonnie's arrangements.

Q: Let's get back to some other bands that you've worked with. How did you hook up with The Doobie Brothers?

A: In my early days in San Francisco, I got to know a guy named Marty Cohn, who had discovered Santana and produced the first Doobie Brothers record. He also had organized the casual rehearsals in Marin that later became Journey, and brought me into the Seals And Crofts sessions. He asked me to work on their second Doobies record with him, which was to become TOLOUSE STREET. We did "White Suns", Snake Man", "Tolouse Street", and one other song. We got those four songs done, but Tom Johnston was starting his heroin experience, and not singing very well. We spent about $20,000 on those four tracks--which is really not very much at all--even at the time--but it gave Ted Templeman an excuse to take over. Actually, I think the reason was that the project was starting to happen; the band was really good. So he took over the project and moved the project to Hollywood. That really devastated me, because I like to do whole projects, but that's what happened. They were just this San Jose bar band...

Q: Kind of like Moby Grape...

A: Yeah, but not quite as good as the Grape, but they were cool. Their original drummer, Little John, is still one of my favorite drummers. In the first album, you see him as this really large, biker-looking guy. After that he got really thin, and he became a conga player/percussionist...

Q: I guess that's what I originally liked about them, they were a true biker band...

A: That's exactly right, but you wouldn't know that by listening to LISTEN TO THE MUSIC. But I just remember those hot nights, up in the mountains in Boulder Creek...they were great. I was also working on some spec sessions at the time, one band called RJ Fox...

Q: Oh, great stuff...

A: Yeah! It was about this time that I was leaving Heiders', which in retrospect might not have been the greatest idea. I was working a lot with The New Riders a lot. Interestingly enough, I never asked for advances on projects, I was really living on kick-backs I was getting for bringing the bands into the studio...and I never negotiated a contract for royalties back then, I just trusted the guys to send me the checks...

Q: And you got paid hourly, as well, I imagine...

A: Yeah, like $10.00 an hour, something like that...

Q: (laughs) Well, you were a young kid...

A: I was an idiot! (laughter) I had no one to tell me, "Hey, stupid!, here's what you should ask for..." I didn't know how it was done, so I just let other people make the decisions for me. Anyway...

Q: The New Riders...

A: Yeah, the New Riders, the first record went really well. 1972. John McIntire brought the band in on spec, and made a deal with Heider. The Riders were difficult, because they did a lot of liquor. They were a drinking band, as opposed to a smoking band (laughs). The second record came along, and CBS said, "well, we're a union house, and you have to record here." So, we tried to do some recording with the union guys at the CBS facility down in L.A., but I wasn't allowed to touch anything. We were hooked up with a very good, young staff CBS engineer named Alex Casenegras. I appreciated the guy, he was their "young turk" -literally, but that facility was cold, and you couldn't hear anything. Later we worked out a deal where two CBS union assistant engineers would stand by at Heiders and I made records my usual way after that.

The band would get in at around 11:00 am and we'd start recording, and by about 2:00 pm, after a lot of smoking and a bit of drinking, the performances curve would drop off. So I would try and get the tracks early in the day, and then do overdubs into the night. David (Nelson), God bless him, he's a wonderful guy and soulful player, but at the time he really hadn't gotten his act together. His solos had to be comped from several different takes. There was a lot of manipulation, so I was really earning my pay. The Riders didn't have a lot of communication as a studio band, so that was very hard, and that's why I stopped working with them after 4 records. By the way, I've heard live tapes of David Nelson's new band, the "Freaks of Nature" and he plays great today, and a much tighter band than the Riders ever were.

Q: How did you come to build Bob Weir's home studio?

A: Well, after that flurry of activity that I just mentioned, I created some spec deals, 'cause I wanted to produce more than engineer. I worked with The Sons of Champlin, RJ Fox, and Howdy Moon, with Valerie Carter, John Lind and Richard Hovey . I also produced an album for Mike Finnegan. This was the time when I started working with the Tubes.

I got to talking to Bob Weir about building a rehearsal studio/recording facility. It was also in the works that I was going to work on ACE (Weir's solo debut LP), but it didn't work out and Bob and Betty ended up doing project. But this opportunity to build this studio for Weir came up, and I rekindled my interest in electronics so that I could build up this studio from scratch. I also wanted to hang out with Bobby, because I wanted to work on another Grateful Dead record. At the same time, my living situation had changed, and I needed a place to stay, so I just started to crash in his studio building. It was the bird-house like structure next to his main house in the woods in Mill Valley above his carport. His architect was totally acoustically un-informed(laughter). He had this really tiny control room which would not accommodate any known console. So I had to build a console from scratch to fit that room. The concept was to build a rehearsal/writing room, and I was going to do it up right.

I got a Scully 8-track and a bunch of classic mics like 67’s and M50’s from Mussel Shoals, Alabama. Bob wanted everything wooden. If he could have, he would have had wooden knobs on the console. Every equalizer was built by hand, every resistor was soldered into place. Phase one was an 8-track room, with ten inputs and these mic pre-amps that I got from a guy in Hollywood, Bell Losmandy. I got to use a lot of studio building ideas that I'd come up with. About seven months into the project, they decided that they would do a Grateful Dead record there and bump the specs up for 16 tracks, and I said "Oh, then this'll be a Grateful Dead record that I get to work on. I built the studio, I'll get to work on the record." It was implied, I thought. During phase one I hired some of people to help me, but I did a lot of it myself. During the end of that period, I hired Robby Taylor to help me with the wiring. He had never wired anything in his life, but he was familiar with soldering techniques, because he made jewelry. I would make these graphic diagrams of what went where, and he would make these beautiful harnesses, like he'd been doing it all his life. Anyway, the whole project took over two years, from the middle of '73 to early '75, when BLUES FOR ALLAH started.

When the date was approached to start that record, it was pretty obvious that Dan Healy wanted to do the record. I put it to the band that I had put this time into building the studio, and that I thought that I should be doing the record. They said, "We got a great idea, why don't you both do it?" And after a week of working this way I thought, no, Healy and I had completely different styles. He liked to hog the console without a lot of input from anyone. It just didn't work.

I needed to make records again. Enough of this electronic design stuff. At that point I had been in contact with The Village Recorder in West LA, where I had worked briefly before, and made arrangements to work there, so I split for Southern California.

END PT. TWO

 GO TO PART THREE